-----Original Message-----From: **** [mailto:****@wmsdist.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 3:31 PMTo: David McDonaldSubject: couple questions for you. :-)
I have a couple questions. I was wondering where people went when they died before Jesus was born? I am asking this because I just finished Job. In the end of the book when God speaks to Job and his friends, after they're done arguing; God tells Job's friends to give Job some of their animals as burnt offerings and then Job would pray to God for them and he would accept Job's prayers and not deal with them any longer?!.... I really didn't understand what God was doing. I realize before Jesus was born and died on the cross things were a bit different in terms of "salvation" but were Job's friends not "allowed" to speak to God, and why was God speaking to them if they couldn't speak to him?
To be honest the last couple weeks I've been re-thinking, if you will the whole traditional "salvation" thing. ____ and I were out with ____and ____talking about God, the Bible, etc. We started discussing those in the primitive tribes who have never heard the word God or Jesus before and I wondered how does God judge those who have been born into a world where the Bible has, or might never be introduced? Then ____ brought up a good point. She said "How do you really get 'saved' anyway." This brought questions to my mind. I wasn't thinking of this salvation thing as if it applied to me, but I have started to become torn between the "traditional" salvation message; the one where you have to pray a certain prayer and tell God you believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, etc; and the one she was proposing which was more of a relationship, faith, belief thing. I started thinking if someone came to me and asked about God how would I explain "salvation"? Would I explain it the way I've always heard? Would I feel right if I didn't? Sometimes I wonder if the convictions you feel are convictions God actual gives you or convictions a church had implemented?
Because WestWinds is different than the Baptist church I started attending with ____, or other traditional churches I've been too I can honestly say I do not have answers my own questions. I mean I am a believer and "saved" if you will... but I don't want to misrepresent God to someone else. For example, My niece is 6. Her parents (____'s sister and Brother-in-law) attended Bob Jones University in North Carolina and still attend the church; this is probably the most conservative approach to Christianity you can think of, dresses, skirts, suit and ties, the whole 10 yards of rules and regulations! Anyway, ever since my niece has been an infant they have done the Bible/Family time every night, using only the King James version, commanding her to recite Bible versus and reprimanding her if she doesn't, praying at every meal, hands folded, eyes down, out loud... you probably get the picture and are rolling your eyes by now.... I know what you're thinking! I thought the same thingJ Anyway, my mother-in-law told me awhile ago back ____, my niece got saved. She asked Jesus to come into her heart type thing.
I hope you understand what I mean?? I thought I would ask you over email as this would give you time to answer my question when your schedule allows. Please be completely honest in what you think! Lay it all out on the table if you'd like I won't get offended I promise! I trust always the staff and leadership at WestWinds to be the correct view and thinking. This has been something I've been thinking about for a long time, not just since our night out with ____ and ____ but always wondered why WestWinds never did do the "salvation message" the traditional way.
Thanks again... and Sunday was great! As always! I always go away with much to think about... always! It's a good thing because sometimes I think "I have it all figured out" and then WestWinds comes along and gives me a reality check.
Kindest Regards,
B.
Thursday, March 23, 2006
a little exegesis from len sweet
When Jethro said farewell to Moses, he used the Hebrew phrase . . . "lech l'shalom" . . . literally, "Go TO Peace" (Exodus 4:18) . . . . towhich the rabbis added "and he succeeded," going on to return to Egypt and liberate his people. But when David said goodbye to Absalom for what turned out to be the last time, he said, "lech b'shalom" . . . . literally "Go IN Peace" (2Sam.15:9) . . . after which "he died."
We "Go TO Peace" for a life of mission and ministry. We "Go IN Peace" when we find the completeness and wholeness and perfection of death. In life we can only word towards peace, but never be "in peace."
We "Go TO Peace" for a life of mission and ministry. We "Go IN Peace" when we find the completeness and wholeness and perfection of death. In life we can only word towards peace, but never be "in peace."
thoughts, condensed, from my friends
True loyalty is loyalty to each other's differences NOT loyalty to each other's sameness to us.
When diversity disappears, we are diminishing/losing part of the body of Christ.
We embrace the diversity that seems interesting or exotic, but often ignore diversity that isn't as pretty; diversity for us is a BBQ restaurant that offers four kinds of sauce.
Jesus was always found in the margins - among the "difference". . . on the borderlands.
It's the margins, the peripheries (not the boundaries), where beauty and simplicity reside.
When diversity disappears, we are diminishing/losing part of the body of Christ.
We embrace the diversity that seems interesting or exotic, but often ignore diversity that isn't as pretty; diversity for us is a BBQ restaurant that offers four kinds of sauce.
Jesus was always found in the margins - among the "difference". . . on the borderlands.
It's the margins, the peripheries (not the boundaries), where beauty and simplicity reside.
"conversations on soteriology", or 'what must i do to be saved?' PART FIVE_FINAL
Ok. It really boils down to me not complicating it more than what it really is. All your answers are great and they are giving me just what I need to know. I'll let it sit in for awhile and if I come up with anything else I'll let you know; but you've pretty much covered my repeating questions.
Thanks again.
~B.
Thanks again.
~B.
"conversations on soteriology", or 'what does it mean to be saved?' PART FOUR
From: David McDonald [mailto:David.McDonald@westwinds.org] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 10:40 AMTo: ****: RE: Do I get it?
hey b. - glad to see you're still wrestling with all of this!
one clarification i'd like to make, though, concerns the idea of 'acknowledging jesus.' if we're talking in very strict terms, i don't think the bible supports the idea that merely acknowledging jesus is "sufficient" for entry into the kingdom of heaven - after all, even demons know and acknowledge that jesus is lord, but it seems unlikely to picture heaven being full of red devils and horned monkeys, right?
so, there has to be an additional piece other than simply admitting that jesus is divine/supreme/lord and i'm convinced that piece is all about following jesus.
the disciples literally followed jesus from town to town and tried to imitate him
the other followers of jesus - those he taught in the mountains, who witnessed his crucifixion, who listened to him at the temple - were identified as 'christians' because they followed jesus of nazareth like puppies follow little boys. and it is through our emulation of jesus that we have greater access to himto the benefits of knowing himto learning his likes/dislikes/preferences/ethics
so, the value in following jesus is really a kind of "on earth as it is in heaven" value
it's the value of making his world our worldof heaven colliding with earth
it is possible to be a christ-follower and be miserable
but the more we know jesusthe closer we get to himthe harder it becomes to stay miserable
because our perspective changes
because our source of security and identity changes
because our family and our resouces change
because following jesus is a whole other way of living that goes way beyond a "belief"
it is a "way"
we are followers of the way
jesus is the way
"salvation" is about more than avoiding hellit's also about reducing hell on earth
ok - talk to you again soon!
hey b. - glad to see you're still wrestling with all of this!
one clarification i'd like to make, though, concerns the idea of 'acknowledging jesus.' if we're talking in very strict terms, i don't think the bible supports the idea that merely acknowledging jesus is "sufficient" for entry into the kingdom of heaven - after all, even demons know and acknowledge that jesus is lord, but it seems unlikely to picture heaven being full of red devils and horned monkeys, right?
so, there has to be an additional piece other than simply admitting that jesus is divine/supreme/lord and i'm convinced that piece is all about following jesus.
the disciples literally followed jesus from town to town and tried to imitate him
the other followers of jesus - those he taught in the mountains, who witnessed his crucifixion, who listened to him at the temple - were identified as 'christians' because they followed jesus of nazareth like puppies follow little boys. and it is through our emulation of jesus that we have greater access to himto the benefits of knowing himto learning his likes/dislikes/preferences/ethics
so, the value in following jesus is really a kind of "on earth as it is in heaven" value
it's the value of making his world our worldof heaven colliding with earth
it is possible to be a christ-follower and be miserable
but the more we know jesusthe closer we get to himthe harder it becomes to stay miserable
because our perspective changes
because our source of security and identity changes
because our family and our resouces change
because following jesus is a whole other way of living that goes way beyond a "belief"
it is a "way"
we are followers of the way
jesus is the way
"salvation" is about more than avoiding hellit's also about reducing hell on earth
ok - talk to you again soon!
"conversations on soteriology", or 'what does it mean to be saved?' PART THREE
From: ****[mailto:***@wmsdist.com] Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 9:47 AMTo: David McDonaldSubject: Do I get it?
Ok... I GET IT... I think?! I did a lot of thinking, reading, praying, thinking, talking, reading, etc; yesterday and this is the conclusion I have gathered from your response....
It's not that I have been "doing" things wrong the whole time, it's just the understanding was/is now different. Correct me if I'm wrong but what I am getting is you can be "saved" by acknowledging Jesus was sent to die for humanity's sins, and to bridge the way for God and man to have an earthly and eternal relationship. Acknowledging Jesus would get you a parking space in Heaven, but that would be about it if you only acknowledged him- thus the term you can be saved and not be a Christian, like Amish, or Catholics.
I understand what you are saying when you talk about what it means to be a Christian and since thoroughly reading this I can honestly say I've been placing God on a lower level than what he should be on. I thought last night. "What really makes God angry ____?" Was I putting too much emphasis on the little things? Then I started thinking about the things that really enrage God...were these the same things that enraged me? My answer was yes, however, there were more things bothering me than God.
I know what you are saying about the divine adjudication and it was the same thing I was thinking. There are only a couple questions I have, other than those on the email I sent you last night re: WestWinds. Why would someone believe in Jesus but not be a Christian? And if all you have to do is believe in Jesus to get into Heaven then why follow Christ?
These last couple of questions you might not be able to answer and that is ok; they don't really apply to me because I want to follow him, I think he deserves at least that much... but sometimes I doesn't quite feel like I'm following him, it's more like running after him out of breath; but what would I say to someone if they asked me these questions? Because it's the right thing to do - ok yes, but there are some I know who don't just go with the flow.
Anyway, THANK YOU SO MUCH! You've cleared up... I think ...a few important questions of mine for a long time.
Talk to you soon,~_____
Ok... I GET IT... I think?! I did a lot of thinking, reading, praying, thinking, talking, reading, etc; yesterday and this is the conclusion I have gathered from your response....
It's not that I have been "doing" things wrong the whole time, it's just the understanding was/is now different. Correct me if I'm wrong but what I am getting is you can be "saved" by acknowledging Jesus was sent to die for humanity's sins, and to bridge the way for God and man to have an earthly and eternal relationship. Acknowledging Jesus would get you a parking space in Heaven, but that would be about it if you only acknowledged him- thus the term you can be saved and not be a Christian, like Amish, or Catholics.
I understand what you are saying when you talk about what it means to be a Christian and since thoroughly reading this I can honestly say I've been placing God on a lower level than what he should be on. I thought last night. "What really makes God angry ____?" Was I putting too much emphasis on the little things? Then I started thinking about the things that really enrage God...were these the same things that enraged me? My answer was yes, however, there were more things bothering me than God.
I know what you are saying about the divine adjudication and it was the same thing I was thinking. There are only a couple questions I have, other than those on the email I sent you last night re: WestWinds. Why would someone believe in Jesus but not be a Christian? And if all you have to do is believe in Jesus to get into Heaven then why follow Christ?
These last couple of questions you might not be able to answer and that is ok; they don't really apply to me because I want to follow him, I think he deserves at least that much... but sometimes I doesn't quite feel like I'm following him, it's more like running after him out of breath; but what would I say to someone if they asked me these questions? Because it's the right thing to do - ok yes, but there are some I know who don't just go with the flow.
Anyway, THANK YOU SO MUCH! You've cleared up... I think ...a few important questions of mine for a long time.
Talk to you soon,~_____
"conversations on soteriology", or 'what does it mean to be saved?' PART TWO
hey b. - thanks for the email [wow, sounds like you've been doing a lot of thinking here lately :)]
in an effort to try and level the playing field, let's - just for purposes of this conversation - avoid the term "salvation." it's not that the term is bad, quite the opposite actually - i consider myself saved and very much value my salvation - but that word may have a little too much baggage for us right now.
instead let's think about what christianity really is.
christianity is all about jesus.
it's about the person of jesus christ
about jesus christ, fully god and fully man, who alone bore the full measure of god's wrath that was intended for the shortcomings of sinful humanity
who alone substituted his own life in payment for the lives of all men and women through all time
who makes friendship and love with god available to all who choose it
freely
without any who deserve it of their own merit
that's what christianity is all about
jesus
so, when i think about what it means to be a christian
i think about following jesus
i think about serving jesus
i think about emulating jesus
imitating him
pleasing him
honoring him with every thought, word, guesture, commitment and intention
i think about trying to make jesus proud
about what it might take to have him cheer me on
about the things he says he likes and the things that make him angry
now, the word "salvation" implies we need to be saved from something
well, what do we need to be saved from? hell? ok, hell - but what else?
see, i think jesus saves us from hell, but he also saves us from a million other, more immediate things
like guilt
like despair
like the reality of a world without hope or purpose or meaning
jesus saves us from finding our identity in what we wear or what we do, and instead frees us to be the people he has created us to be complete with our own preferences and aesthetics, friendships and covenants
jesus saves us from the need to possess things or be possessed by other people
so, when we talk about salvation we're not only talking about some kind of eternal parking space
but also about a life lived in service of jesus christ
in relationship with god
in fellowship with our creator and his incarnate self
and - to answer your first question - i think this is an understanding that stretched back before christ [for example, to the time of job]
when there was no person "jesus", there was still god and the means of salvation for humanity was still being in right relationship with god
the way[s] in which people entered and remained in that right relationship were different then then they are now
but they were always just means to an end
the end has always been union with god
oneness with jesus christ - the same god who [ironically and metaphysically] existed before there even was a "jesus"
i suppose this also springboards into another discussion about people who are presently alive and have never heard about jesus
and what rubric god uses to appraise their relationship to him in the absence of a christ-figure;
but, i'm afraid i don't really have a compete answer here
like all of the answers i'm trying to supply, this is another area where i cannot claim absolute certainty
because it is the dominion of divine adjudication
and the best we can hope for is that the soverign justice of god works in harmony with the soverign grace of god
to "save" all he can
because we know it is his wish that no one should perish
that no one should be held without grace
that all humanity should receive the gift of grace and walk with god
like we did in the beginning
in eden
in the garden
and maybe that's the best way for us to understand salvation
as a present return to the garden of eden
where we walked with god as a friend
when we were saved from isolation
anyways, i hope that helps foster some more thinking on your part
talk to you soon!
in an effort to try and level the playing field, let's - just for purposes of this conversation - avoid the term "salvation." it's not that the term is bad, quite the opposite actually - i consider myself saved and very much value my salvation - but that word may have a little too much baggage for us right now.
instead let's think about what christianity really is.
christianity is all about jesus.
it's about the person of jesus christ
about jesus christ, fully god and fully man, who alone bore the full measure of god's wrath that was intended for the shortcomings of sinful humanity
who alone substituted his own life in payment for the lives of all men and women through all time
who makes friendship and love with god available to all who choose it
freely
without any who deserve it of their own merit
that's what christianity is all about
jesus
so, when i think about what it means to be a christian
i think about following jesus
i think about serving jesus
i think about emulating jesus
imitating him
pleasing him
honoring him with every thought, word, guesture, commitment and intention
i think about trying to make jesus proud
about what it might take to have him cheer me on
about the things he says he likes and the things that make him angry
now, the word "salvation" implies we need to be saved from something
well, what do we need to be saved from? hell? ok, hell - but what else?
see, i think jesus saves us from hell, but he also saves us from a million other, more immediate things
like guilt
like despair
like the reality of a world without hope or purpose or meaning
jesus saves us from finding our identity in what we wear or what we do, and instead frees us to be the people he has created us to be complete with our own preferences and aesthetics, friendships and covenants
jesus saves us from the need to possess things or be possessed by other people
so, when we talk about salvation we're not only talking about some kind of eternal parking space
but also about a life lived in service of jesus christ
in relationship with god
in fellowship with our creator and his incarnate self
and - to answer your first question - i think this is an understanding that stretched back before christ [for example, to the time of job]
when there was no person "jesus", there was still god and the means of salvation for humanity was still being in right relationship with god
the way[s] in which people entered and remained in that right relationship were different then then they are now
but they were always just means to an end
the end has always been union with god
oneness with jesus christ - the same god who [ironically and metaphysically] existed before there even was a "jesus"
i suppose this also springboards into another discussion about people who are presently alive and have never heard about jesus
and what rubric god uses to appraise their relationship to him in the absence of a christ-figure;
but, i'm afraid i don't really have a compete answer here
like all of the answers i'm trying to supply, this is another area where i cannot claim absolute certainty
because it is the dominion of divine adjudication
and the best we can hope for is that the soverign justice of god works in harmony with the soverign grace of god
to "save" all he can
because we know it is his wish that no one should perish
that no one should be held without grace
that all humanity should receive the gift of grace and walk with god
like we did in the beginning
in eden
in the garden
and maybe that's the best way for us to understand salvation
as a present return to the garden of eden
where we walked with god as a friend
when we were saved from isolation
anyways, i hope that helps foster some more thinking on your part
talk to you soon!
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
